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Post by duckbarman on Mar 3, 2021 20:46:46 GMT
Interesting you mention the debut album it has always sounded great to me
I always felt the debut was a little too muddy for my taste. ...but that's because it was recorded in an 8-track jingles studio... in that context, I'd say the results were magnificent... to be honest, the whole "distant" - dare I say Warehousey" - feel to that first album is so tied up, part and parcel, with the DNA of the album's content that I don't think I'd change a thing... One thing though - and I don't know if Buck can throw any light on this - but that has ALWAYS struck me as rather strange... what on earth were Columbia doing making BOC record their debut album at the Warehouse...? Obviously, that was fine for the initial demos, but once they'd "passed the audition", you'd have thought Columbia (aka Murray) would have packed the band off to their main studios to get the best possible outcome for their debut... I mean, even when the SWU did those Columbia demos that got rejected (Donovan's Monkey/Sneakers/John L. Sullivan etc) in Sep 1969, that was apparently in "CBS Studio B", so those rejected demos got a better recording treatment than BOC received once they'd been accepted into the Columbia roster... Other than to say it was obviously cheaper, I don't get it... I loved what we ended up with, but I don't get it....
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Post by The Ocean on Mar 3, 2021 21:09:14 GMT
I always felt the debut was a little too muddy for my taste. ...but that's because it was recorded in an 8-track jingles studio... in that context, I'd say the results were magnificent... to be honest, the whole "distant" - dare I say Warehousey" - feel to that first album is so tied up, part and parcel, with the DNA of the album's content that I don't think I'd change a thing... Knowing that at least makes it understandable to me. I can't imagine trying to make Symbol with eight tracks LOL
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Post by Buck on Mar 5, 2021 5:11:44 GMT
When BOC got signed to Columbia, the first LP was a master purchase because we'd recorded at the Warehouse, David Lucas' studio. After that, for Tyranny and Treaties, until On Your Feet, we were obliged by Columbia's policy to use their own studios. Even after we chose to use outside studios like The Record Plant NY for Feet, Agents and Spectres, a Columbia engineer had to be in residence and paid, whether involved or not, because of labor agreements with Columbia.
The Warehouse had one of the first 8 trk machines in NYC. EMI was still doing 4 tracks for Beatles records. The sound of BOC #1 was the room, and the people involved. Even Tyranny and Treaties didn't sound like Columbia Records of the time, by all rights they should have.
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Post by sirrastus on Mar 5, 2021 6:10:09 GMT
I always felt the debut was a little too muddy for my taste. ...but that's because it was recorded in an 8-track jingles studio... in that context, I'd say the results were magnificent... to be honest, the whole "distant" - dare I say Warehousey" - feel to that first album is so tied up, part and parcel, with the DNA of the album's content that I don't think I'd change a thing... One thing though - and I don't know if Buck can throw any light on this - but that has ALWAYS struck me as rather strange... what on earth were Columbia doing making BOC record their debut album at the Warehouse...? Obviously, that was fine for the initial demos, but once they'd "passed the audition", you'd have thought Columbia (aka Murray) would have packed the band off to their main studios to get the best possible outcome for their debut... I mean, even when the SWU did those Columbia demos that got rejected (Donovan's Monkey/Sneakers/John L. Sullivan etc) in Sep 1969, that was apparently in "CBS Studio B", so those rejected demos got a better recording treatment than BOC received once they'd been accepted into the Columbia roster... Other than to say it was obviously cheaper, I don't get it... I loved what we ended up with, but I don't get it....
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Post by sirrastus on Mar 5, 2021 6:11:15 GMT
Always felt that Redcap and Redeemed were the best side enders ever.
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Post by The Ocean on Mar 5, 2021 6:20:53 GMT
Even Tyranny and Treaties didn't sound like Columbia Records of the time, by all rights they should have. I can't imagine those two albums sounding any different anyway.
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Post by The Ocean on Mar 5, 2021 6:23:43 GMT
Always felt that Redcap and Redeemed were the best side enders ever. Redcap could be an opener or a closer and be just as strong. Redeemed is a perfect album closer, but then the band frequently excelled at closing an album with a left turn. Redeemed, Astronomy, Debbie Denise, Lonely Teardrops, Don't Turn Hour Back, etc.
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Post by edog40 on Mar 6, 2021 2:02:33 GMT
Always felt that Redcap and Redeemed were the best side enders ever. Redcap could be an opener or a closer and be just as strong. Redeemed is a perfect album closer, but then the band frequently excelled at closing an album with a left turn. Redeemed, Astronomy, Debbie Denise, Lonely Teardrops, Don't Turn Hour Back, etc. Madness to the Method...
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Post by sirrastus on Mar 6, 2021 3:22:22 GMT
Another favorite.
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Post by agent on Mar 6, 2021 3:31:35 GMT
Comparing Oranges with Tangerines, Springsteen was with Columbia. His Greetings From Asbury Park record was Raw (Great). The Second one, though, 1973, was a pretty polished product.
I don't know if either of those records were done in Columbia's studios. But I've never read the liner notes, either. : )
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Post by duckbarman on Mar 6, 2021 23:39:25 GMT
When BOC got signed to Columbia, the first LP was a master purchase because we'd recorded at the Warehouse, I suppose that's the part that I don't understand... Yes, you'd recorded at the Warehouse to produce a set of demos, and, fortunately for us, they finally earned BOC the infamous Clive Davis audition... but I'm sure plenty of other Columbia artists had recorded their own demos at a variety of other studios, but once they'd got the green light, they then - surely - weren't limited to then having to record their first record under the same circumstances...? And that's why I mentioned Murray - he'd been instrumental in turning the band down previously, but now he'd changed tack and was all for giving BOC a chance to become Columbia's Sabbath equivalent - in a way, his own reputation was on the line with his bosses, so I'd have thought he'd have pushed for BOC to get the best possible chance they could to prove him right... I'm not sure going back to the Warehouse to do the full LP would have been his first choice... from what I can tell, the Warehouse had only ever recorded a couple of LPs prior to yours... Even Billboard at the time (27 Nov 1971) reported on the strangeness of this:
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Post by Buck on Mar 7, 2021 0:57:42 GMT
This is gets into the weeds of business not appropriate for this forum, but essentially, the deal signed w/Columbia included them "purchasing" (in advance,) the master recording of the first LP, thereby exempting that record from the requirement of using CBS' studios. Indie studios were already gaining fame and success at the time, and as good and worthy as the label studios were, and CBS had a great reputation, artists were already chafing under the old and often labor related work rules.
BOC's emergence in the '70's coincided with the death of the big label's A&R department's finding and recording the next big seller artists for the label. They instead hired young people with their ear to the ground to sign artists, and if they succeeded, they had a run, when they failed, they were replaced by younger people. Meanwhile, computers came in and bean counters began to run the corporation's behavior. Profit became the prime motive. The age of labels run by people who loved music was mostly over. Every record exec loves music, don't they? Maybe, but no one does it by the seat of their pants anymore.
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