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Post by duckbarman on Nov 22, 2020 22:04:40 GMT
The band was never keen on doing all of Imaginos live. Back in the day, and I'm talking early to mid '70s, BOC fans would always read about this great Imaginos project that was hovering in the background of things, but obviously it never happened, and when you read contemporaneous interviews and articles, there seemed almost something approaching hostility towards the idea of BOC ever realising that concept from band members other than Albert, and I've often wondered why that might have been the case...? Was it something as simple as members wanting to get their own songs on the next record rather than forgoing that desire and, instead, concentrating on producing a largely Bouchard/Pearlman-centred magnum opus...? I suppose what I'm asking is - Buck, back in the '70s, what did you personally make of the whole Imaginos thing, and if it didn't float your (Plutonia) boat, why was that...? AFAIK, you have a credit on a couple of the 1988 Imaginos tunes, but did you ever actually submit an Imaginos-inspired song for consideration...?
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Post by Buck on Nov 22, 2020 22:54:42 GMT
By the time we'd done "Agents," "Spectres," thru "Fire," there wasn't much enthusiasm for doing "Imaginos." We felt in our bones it wouldn't attract the wider audience we'd built by then. We could never go back to the mood, sound and attitude of the black and white albums. The "rock opera" idea never particularly appealed to me. Also the band was beginning to fracture. We'd been at it hard for almost 10 years. We'd already outlasted the Beatles.
We probably should have broken up after "Fire," or at least taken a long break. But none of us were rich enough. All our earnings and royalties then went into one pot since the band started. Like communism. On the other hand, Imaginos was a good thing for Albert to do after he left BOC. Sandy P. got a deal from Columbia after the success of Meatloaf's "Bat," pitching it as a long form musical story project in the vein of The Who's "Tommy." . But the word was Columbia heard Albert singing most of a double record and declined to release it. Eric and I finished it years later mainly because we thought it should see the light of day. It was paired down to a single record. But it was a commercial failure, and it cost the band dearly because unbeknownst at the time, we'd assumed the burden of paying back the entire Imaginos advances by putting it out as BOC. It took a decade of Reaper money to pay off.
We'd worked on various Imaginos song lyrics all along with the band, and I'd contributed when we did. But Albert was the keeper of the project flame, and of course Sandy wanted it done, it was what he always wanted to do from the beginning.
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Post by Alessandro on Nov 22, 2020 23:46:57 GMT
thanks for pulling no punches with this answer, Buck. Not every rock musician is so straightforward and frank when it comes to talking about crises and inner frictions within their band, although a lot of water has passed under the bridge since. on the other hand it's a pity the whole project was so ill-fated. all of the overdubs done in Frisco by Pearlman and that bombastic, over-produced metal sound quite spoiled it, yet I think some of the songs were truly great. "I am the one you warned me of" still is one of my favorites from the whole Cult catalogue. also "Les Invisibles" is really underrated, according to me.
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Post by markus on Nov 23, 2020 3:29:56 GMT
By the time we'd done "Agents," "Spectres," thru "Fire," there wasn't much enthusiasm for doing "Imaginos." We felt in our bones it wouldn't attract the wider audience we'd built by then. We could never go back to the mood, sound and attitude of the black and white albums. The "rock opera" idea never particularly appealed to me. Also the band was beginning to fracture. We'd been at it hard for almost 10 years. We'd already outlasted the Beatles. We probably should have broken up after "Fire," or at least taken a long break. But none of us were rich enough. All our earnings and royalties then went into one pot since the band started. Like communism. On the other hand, Imaginos was a good thing for Albert to do after he left BOC. Sandy P. got a deal from Columbia after the success of Meatloaf's "Bat," pitching it as a long form musical story project in the vein of The Who's "Tommy." . But the word was Columbia heard Albert singing most of a double record and declined to release it. Eric and I finished it years later mainly because we thought it should see the light of day. It was paired down to a single record. But it was a commercial failure, and it cost the band dearly because unbeknownst at the time, we'd assumed the burden of paying back the entire Imaginos advances by putting it out as BOC. It took a decade of Reaper money to pay off. We'd worked on various Imaginos song lyrics all along with the band, and I'd contributed when we did. But Albert was the keeper of the project flame, and of course Sandy wanted it done, it was what he always wanted to do from the beginning. Thank you BD for filling in the blanks on Imaginos what many BOC fans perceived but never were able to get a clear answer on as well as honest career retrospection; your comments also explain hints of Albert's fiscal desperation post-exile and Eric's overall disdain for Imaginos that we've all read about over the years. Regarding Imaginos and a return to the black-and-white era, I believe Pearlman commented in Popoff's book that the band no longer wanted to be associated with a neo-Wagnerian [i.e. a certain historical figure who was a major admirer] aesthetic, hence, the comments we've all read about AoF being a [permanent] change of direction to composing songs of a personal nature; one does wonder what the double-album that became Secret Treaties might have become. Perhaps a BD autobiography is in order one day...
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druid
Junior Member
Posts: 93
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Post by druid on Nov 23, 2020 4:09:25 GMT
Since I was a kid I have always enjoyed concept records. My secret wish has always been that BOC make a great concept record one day on their own terms. I was listening to Marillion's "Misplaced Childhood" and thought that BOC ought to tackle something like this.
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Post by The Ocean on Nov 23, 2020 12:49:37 GMT
I mean, Columbia always sounded like the worst, but they REALLY sucked...
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Post by frog on Nov 23, 2020 13:03:14 GMT
well, here in France, Best Magazine published a big article in 1978 and it was heavily Imaginos related. (there was that wonderful pic of Allen and Buck in front of a Paris neighbour map) I guess we were formated by the press to be more sensible to the Black and White side of things with the "BÖC lore" and all those references to Jim Morrison and poetry. There may be several kind of BÖC fans, some would be the Buck centered fans (hey Marty !), the "we're here for the music whatever it is" fans, the "black and white" fans, the Imaginos tainted glasses wearing fans, the original BÖC fans, etc. and of course those are not exclusives and well, none would be better or worse than the others.
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Post by Alessandro on Nov 23, 2020 15:46:12 GMT
well, here in France, Best Magazine published a big article in 1978 and it was heavily Imaginos related. (there was that wonderful pic of Allen and Buck in front of a Paris neighbour map) I guess we were formated by the press to be more sensible to the Black and White side of things with the "BÖC lore" and all those references to Jim Morrison and poetry. There may be several kind of BÖC fans, some would be the Buck centered fans (hey Marty !), the "we're here for the music whatever it is" fans, the "black and white" fans, the Imaginos tainted glasses wearing fans, the original BÖC fans, etc. and of course those are not exclusives and well, none would be better or worse than the others. also in early 1976 there was (I think in NME) an article by Max Bell dealing with the forthcoming "Fire of unknown origin" (working title for Agents, before the original song was left off the final mix) which has been finished and was in the process of mixing as the boys were on tour, and the next-to-be-recorded Imaginos. I guess that after the band first refuse to end Sandy's conceptual plan with either Imaginos following or taking the place of Treaties, he and Albert were constantly pushing for the concept to be released from 1976 on up till Cultosaurus.
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Post by duckbarman on Nov 23, 2020 16:56:44 GMT
well, here in France, Best Magazine published a big article in 1978 and it was heavily Imaginos related. (there was that wonderful pic of Allen and Buck in front of a Paris neighbour map) I guess we were formated by the press to be more sensible to the Black and White side of things with the "BÖC lore" and all those references to Jim Morrison and poetry. There may be several kind of BÖC fans, some would be the Buck centered fans (hey Marty !), the "we're here for the music whatever it is" fans, the "black and white" fans, the Imaginos tainted glasses wearing fans, the original BÖC fans, etc. and of course those are not exclusives and well, none would be better or worse than the others. also in early 1976 there was (I think in NME) an article by Max Bell dealing with the forthcoming "Fire of unknown origin" (working title for Agents, before the original song was left off the final mix) which has been finished and was in the process of mixing as the boys were on tour, and the next-to-be-recorded Imaginos. That was actually in October 1975, just before the first Euro tour - here's the bit I think you're referring to: On to new material, of which the Cult have plenty. At present there are two separate plans. I heard snippets from both. One is the new band album yet to be recorded but which should be mixed in England and released in February. This has the working title "Fire Of Unknown Origin" and includes three or four Patti Smith songs which were written with boyfriend Lanier.
The rough cuts I listened to were the title track, "True Confessions" (Patti singing harmonies), and a very heavy Dharma song, "Don't Fear The Reaper." They all sounded like something of a departure from usual Oysteroid style and they were all goodies without any softening up on subject matter:
"It'll be bold, brave, sexy, very sensual, a lot more human than we've been before. 'Secret Treaties' was a political dissertation but we won't do any more pamphlets or broadsides. There's still going to be a lot of good old death songs, though, 'cos we like 'em and there aren't many things you can write interesting songs about. It's hard to get politically involved with Ford in the White House.
"The album will have jagged edges and be like us, evolutionary of course. We will all lose two incisors and one toe."
Pearlman and Albert Bouchard are working independently on another scheme called "The Soft Doctrines Of Imaginos" which continues in the vein of "Astronomy" and keeps the Lovecraft character Desdanova alive.
Numbers include: "Immaginos," "I Am The One You Warned Me Of," "When The Party's Over," "Siege And Investiture" and "Del Rio Song." From initial hearing it sounds like it could be the first important concept album, a new horizon altogether.
"When The Party's Over (Magna Of Illusion)" is wipeout. A song about a mirror endowed with destructive qualities and the influence to set countries at war, a tyranny and mutation magnum opus that ends with the advent of 1914. Originally the Cult weren't prepared to tackle the idea. Bloom particularly because he has to cope with Pearlman's lyrics which are all straight non-rhyming prose, but they're being won over.Well, ignoring whether or not they actually ever were "won over", for Max to have heard "snippets" of both projects, then that must mean at least five Imaginos songs must have been demoed in 1975, although it's not explicitly stated if these demos were by Albert only or by Albert plus other band members... we've all heard Albert's later Imaginos demos, but it'd be very interesting to hear these earlier versions... However, it's interesting to note that earlier that year, in Feb 1975, Max wrote the following (spellings are left intact): Pearlman says of the first album: "It's better than Killer but not as good as Master Of Reality." His own writing obsessions, they show fixations with dogs and roses (as motifs of death or brooding sexuality), sea-creatures with anthropomorphic tendencies and a space populated by unnatural zombies. These elements are mixed in with characters who act as catalysts. Predominant amongst these is Susy who starts off getting gangbanged in 'Before The Kiss A Redcap' and never looks back.
No lyric sheet and there never will be: "I'm fascinated by the accidental discovery Black Sabbath have made of their audience's consciousness. We're more self-conscious. Our literary influences couldn't be much less naive. Rimbaud, Dada, H. P. Lovecraft and yer standard assortment of doomo writers i.e. turn-of-the-century Russian and German. Our songs are a Fantasy Distillation Of Reality."
He's pretty pleased with this phrase and repeats it several times.
"Our next studio album is built around a song cycle. It's about a child who grew up in New Hampshire and discovers he has the ability to reconcile the imagined with reality. There's no gap between his imagination and his ability to realise it. He can accomplish what he imagines and imagine what he's going to accomplish.
"Secret Treaties began the concept with the Desdanova (sic) theme. The new thing is called 'The Soft Doctrines Of Imaginos'. See, I like to use naive, densely stupid terms. It's a trick of some Russia literature to totally obliterate metaphors. Anyway, Desdanova is a student at Braun University in Providence who lives there to be close to Lovecraft. He's a Frankenstein figure who achieves through research what Imaginos understood instinctively, he forms the axiom. Desdanova appears in 'Astronomy' and some of the songs yet to come out."
That last mentioned track is the stunningly beautiful number that closes Secret Treaties . Sandy explains the story and some of those already mentioned symbols: "It's New Year's Eve and Desdanova walks into the Four Winds Bar" (an actual joint on Atlantic Beach). "He plays this game with two girls which has to be completed in the six hours from midnight to dawn cos he can't stand the light.
"It's so sort of... corrosive.
"There's a parallel with the rose which is similarly over-fulfilled, a symbol of over-ripeness and decadence. The dog is Susy's familiar and the carrier of starry wisdom from the actual dogstar. Lovecraft had this term 'starry wisdom cult' which was so apt I had to use it." So there you have Max relaying the info that the next studio album was going to be Imaginos... even now, I remember the keen sense of anticipation everyone was feeling for the next year or so waiting for this mystical LP to finally appear... :-(
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Post by edog40 on Nov 23, 2020 17:20:20 GMT
"Oysteroid"
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Post by marty on Nov 23, 2020 17:56:05 GMT
well, here in France, Best Magazine published a big article in 1978 and it was heavily Imaginos related. (there was that wonderful pic of Allen and Buck in front of a Paris neighbour map) I guess we were formated by the press to be more sensible to the Black and White side of things with the "BÖC lore" and all those references to Jim Morrison and poetry. There may be several kind of BÖC fans, some would be the Buck centered fans (hey Marty !), the "we're here for the music whatever it is" fans, the "black and white" fans, the Imaginos tainted glasses wearing fans, the original BÖC fans, etc. and of course those are not exclusives and well, none would be better or worse than the others. Sure, I see all things BÖC through Roeser colored glasses, so naturally I’m not going to love an album that has Marc Beiderman playing, or Robbie Krieger, or whoever, when it oughta be Buck. No shocker that the album tanked. Not even the starry wisdom could save it. I just thank god that BÖC didn’t take Biederman et al on tour to play the songs, with Buck providing the vocals, behind the curtain. Like I said, I loved hearing the songs on tour, but not THAT much. #HereForTheSongsWithBuckOnGuitar
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Post by The Ocean on Nov 23, 2020 18:41:45 GMT
well, here in France, Best Magazine published a big article in 1978 and it was heavily Imaginos related. (there was that wonderful pic of Allen and Buck in front of a Paris neighbour map) I guess we were formated by the press to be more sensible to the Black and White side of things with the "BÖC lore" and all those references to Jim Morrison and poetry. There may be several kind of BÖC fans, some would be the Buck centered fans (hey Marty !), the "we're here for the music whatever it is" fans, the "black and white" fans, the Imaginos tainted glasses wearing fans, the original BÖC fans, etc. and of course those are not exclusives and well, none would be better or worse than the others. Room for all fans under the sun, although my take is this: I'm a fan of great music which is unique and layered, but also admiring of musicians who have a diverse ability and can credibly perform in many genres. I think that's where BOC got me. The band that did Burnin and Veteran also did 7 Screaming Diz-Busters and Mistress of the Salmon Salt? Get the fuck outta here. I firmly believe that if the Oyster Boys had just continued to make music in the style of the black & white era, it would have become boring, no offense intended to Buck or the band. After a while if album after album sounds the same, no matter how talented the people involved are and how good the work may be on its own merits they just blend together. Agents was like a creative kick in the ass. It opened them up to new audiences, showed their range, showed off some pretty remarkable talent from all 5 members for writing. And they still showed that they could return to the strange dark and macabre from time to time. It's part of why I haven't really registered to any of Iron Maiden's studio albums after A Matter of Life and Death (which happens to be a very different album to their usual work). I haven't really relistened to any of Judas Priest's albums after their 2004 reunion album because again it's all the same. Dream Theater hasn't put out an interesting album in almost 20 years despite how talented they may be, because so many of their songs just sound like everything else now. AC/DC haven't released anything worth remembering in 30 years. And these are some of my favorite bands I'm mentioning, too. BOC is one of the rare bands that hasn't atrophied in style. Like bands like Rush or Golden Earring, they had a sound, and then that sound changed and changed again. People have their favorite eras, but I love having the options and hearing each band pull it all off. Sometimes you need a Box in my Head for every Diz Buster.
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Post by frog on Nov 23, 2020 19:40:10 GMT
Sure, I see all things BÖC through Roeser colored glasses, so naturally I’m not going to love an album that has Marc Beiderman playing, or Robbie Krieger, or whoever, when it oughta be Buck. No shocker that the album tanked. Not even the starry wisdom could save it. I just thank god that BÖC didn’t take Biederman et al on tour to play the songs, with Buck providing the vocals, behind the curtain. Like I said, I loved hearing the songs on tour, but not THAT much. #HereForTheSongsWithBuckOnGuitar was that a possibility i hope not. (I totally understand you on Imaginos, Marty. I sometime agree, I sometime don't. even without taking the... money... thing and its consequences in consideration.)
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Post by Buck on Nov 24, 2020 3:20:07 GMT
It's hard to blame Columbia for first refusing to release Imaginos in 1982, although it would have been better for all of us if they had. Nor can you blame them for a chance to get all the money they'd advanced Sandy over the years to make Imaginos from the beginning back. It was the most expensive album in our history, by a factor of three. And it wasn't our record. Anyway, as Alessandro says, it's water under the bridge now.
As for Sandy P. getting fans and people like Max Bell fired up, well that was one of Sandy's persuasive gifts. He could get others excited by his concepts and ideas. He certainly did with the original Soft White Underbelly and BOC lineup. He got a lot of record executives fired up over the years too. But other than BOC, he didn't have much commercial success in the end.
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Post by robreich on Nov 24, 2020 5:31:43 GMT
“Roeser colored glasses,” that’s outstanding, Martman!
And Ralph, I didn’t think Max was saying that he’d heard the Imaginos tracks like he had the Agents tracks, I thought he was just reporting song titles. I’ll read it again (thanks for posting).
Rob
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